This episode features an interview with John Boerstler, Chief Experience Officer at the U.S. Department of Veterans’ Affairs. In this episode, John talks about improving trust ratings, journey mapping, and reaching underserved communities.
This episode features an interview with John Boerstler, Chief Experience Officer at the U.S. Department of Veterans’ Affairs. In this episode, John talks about improving trust ratings, journey mapping, and reaching underserved communities.
Quotes
“If we're going to create this world-class customer experience for our veterans and their families, caregivers, and survivors, then we also have to make sure that we provide a world-class employee experience for 400,000 men and women that serve here in the VA everyday.”
“If we think just not only along the lines of age, race and ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender in general, we have to design for all of these different customer types to ensure that some of the most underserved veterans and their families are out or are engaged and retained as customers and that they choose VA for their care and benefits so that we can fulfill our sacred oath and our commitment to them.”
“The United States military creates the largest number of displaced workers every year. 250,000 young men and women leave active service. And they move from Virginia to Texas or California to Missouri or Missouri to Florida and the professional and personal networks that they have at their duty station that do not translate to the communities that they return to. And so they have a difficult time finding work and finding a new social or that unit mentality, that social net social network, so to speak that we have in the military, that comradery that we so miss. And that can lead to negative health and economic outcomes. So how can we be on the front end of that transition, improve it, negative health and economic outcomes by wrapping our arms around these individuals and their families at that point of transition and then at the same time deliver a delightful customer experience?”
Time Stamps
*[4:09] Shifting to human-centered design
*[6:05] The sacred duty to serve Veterans
*[7:15] How the VA has improved trust ratings by 23%
*[10:26] Leveraging tech to give more Veterans access to services
*[12:50] The birth of the Veterans Experience Officer and the first journey map
*[16:54] The core values of the VA in CX
*[18:46] Using data to increase access and improve outcomes for Veterans
*[20:47] Meeting the unique challenges of Veterans after active service
*[24:14] Learning to meet the needs of LGBTQ and BIPOC Veterans
*[27:31] Measuring the effectiveness of CX initiatives
*[31:58] Meeting Veterans at their point of transition to civilian life
*[32:33] Addressing mental health needs among Veterans
*[39:00] Owning the moment
Bio
John is a native Texan who served honorably in the U.S. Marine Corps from 1999-2007 as a non-commissioned officer and infantry unit leader, including one combat tour in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom from 2004-2005 and Operation Natural Fire in the Republic of Kenya in 2006. John has also served as the CEO of Combined Arms, Executive Director of NextOp, a program manager with Wounded Warrior Project, the Mayor of Houston’s Office of Veterans Affairs, and as a policy and district staffer for a U.S. Representative.
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John Boerstler: The United States military creates the largest number of displaced workers every year. 250,000 young men and women leave active service. And they move from Virginia to Texas or California to Missouri or Missouri to Florida and the professional and personal networks that they have at their duty station that do not translate to the communities that they return to. And so they have a difficult time finding work and finding a new social or that unit mentality, that social net social network, so to speak that we have in the military, that comradery that we so miss. And that can lead to negative health and economic outcomes. So how can we be on the front end of that transition, improve it, negative health and economic outcomes by wrapping our arms around these individuals and their families at that point of transition and then at the same time deliver a delightful customer experience?
Producer: Hello and welcome to The Customer Experience Show! Today we’re talking with John Boerstler, Chief Experience Officer at the U.S. Department of Veterans’ Affairs. John is responsible for overseeing projects and programs within the Veterans Experience Office. He also helps achieve greater access and outcomes for Veterans. John served honorably in the U.S. Marines from 1999 to 2007, and has been the CEO of Combined Arms and Executive Director of NextOp among other prestigious roles.
In this episode, John talks about improving trust ratings, journey mapping and reaching Veterans in underserved communities. But first, a word from our sponsor.
Phil Dillard: To John Boerstler, customer experience is not just his job, it’s his sacred duty. As a Marine, serving his brothers and sisters is in his blood. And now as Chief Experience Officer at the V.A., he’s not just serving his fellow Veterans, but their families, caregivers and survivors. It’s that level of ownership that we’re talking about today. He’s sharing with us how to embrace customer experience with the same Semper Fi spirit.
Hello, everyone. And welcome again to another episode of the customer experience show. I'm your host, Phil Dillard here today with a very special guest John Boerstler CXO of the U.S department of veterans affairs as a Navy veteran. myself Who's seen his work firsthand experience the VA. And I'd say one of the best VA's in the country in San Francisco, as well as his work as CEO of combined arms.
I know firsthand the great work that John has done for veterans and for the country and for his service in the Marine Corps. And I'm really excited to have him here. So, John, Hey, thanks for making the time. Great to see you
John Boerstler: Thanks for having me Phil and go
Navy.
Phil Dillard: Semper Fi
John Boerstler: Right.
Phil Dillard: Really excited to have this conversation. Good time in the works. There's so much to cover. There, I think people know what the VA is or people they know a little bit about the VA, but they don't really know. So we read the description of the U.S department of veteran affairs is a cabinet level.
executive Branch department of the federal government charged with integrating lifelong healthcare services to eligible military veterans at the 1700 VA medical centers and outpatient clinics located throughout the country. I mean, that's a mouthful when you describe the VA to people and what it does, how do you describe it
John Boerstler: So I th I, I think starting at what VA used to look w what VA used to kind of resemble themselves as is like, really from an organization centered design. So when you think about the secretary of the veterans affairs, the deputy secretary all of their staff offices and their senior advisors, and then the three administrations So you have the veterans health administration and the veterans benefits administration and the national cemetery administration. That's. very Governmental, when you think about it like that from a very hierarchical organization, org structure on a slide deck type of visual, but a few years ago, when we started really implementing a lot of the customer experience principles that you cover on your show.
So diligently Phil is thinking about it really from the veterans, the, the, customer's perspective and, and after publishing that first journey map that we did in 2015, we really now think about it that VA from very much. More much more human centered design instead of organization centered design. So we really think of it a VA.
If we know that our customers are joining the military, they're serving in the military in uniform, then they're getting out of the military. That's really our first touch point with these individuals and their families and our first opportunity to acquire these customers for life and retain them for life.
So then, you know, if we move throughout the journey map, we're talking about getting out, starting up in your civilian life, taking care of just yourself. Putting down roots. Building your career and then eventually retirement And then B after being successful aging and then eventually passing and being laid to rest in a, in one of our phenomenal cemeteries, but along the way, how can we serve them as best we can through a variety of healthcare programs, benefits, and service programs in the course of the cemetery administration.
So, so that's how I think about it and how w how we get to go to work every day at the veterans experience. office And think about how we can better design for not only our customers in the field, but the employees who are.
serving
them
Phil Dillard: Yeah, absolutely. It's a heck of an organization, right? I think from the frontline people, my experience and the things I've heard from people who've worked in and around the VA. Cause I actually talked to some people who were interviewing folks for innovation program for the local VA, that the people were very mission-driven and their mission is.
clear Right They are They are doing their best to serve the veterans in these number of different ways. And I think the average American doesn't realize that there are.
general, there are multiple generations of Americans, veterans who have different needs than that, that the VA addresses. Throughout the life cycle of those needs.
And you talk about when they leave, well, you could leave at 25, 35, 45, 55, 65. There are guys, men and women. I saw in the VA of every generation and, you know, you know, my grandmother had as my grandfather's flag that was presented as he, before he was put into a veteran's cemetery. So I understand that it's there.
I don't think people understand the size. You said. Second largest organization 400,000 employees, largest integrated health system. I mean, given that, do you think, well, I should say is it, is the organization how well understood is the organization to the general public.
do you think
John Boerstler: Yeah, that's a great question because we don't show up on your Forbes 100 list. And I think if we did based on our budget size, we'd be a 10 or 11 for the size company. 400,000 employees, as you mentioned, 300,000 of which are folks that deliver health care in a clinical setting. And another 100,000 working in variety of staff, offices, benefits delivery, or at their, at our national cemeteries throughout the country.
And You know, thinking about it in terms of its sheer size, not only from a budgetary and personnel standpoint is one thing, but the incredible mission that we have, and this is our sacred duty that we have to serve. These are veterans or they're families, they're caregivers and survivors. with The best and the best way we can.
And in many ways, using a lot of the private sector CX principles that you discussed on your show every week, and really instituting that in government, which is really kind of a new phenomenon. And so we've really, I think been in many ways, the pioneers of how to deliver. Customer experience, patient experience, benefits experience to our many million millions of customers in new and innovative ways.
And are we perfect? Absolutely not. But I think we've come a long way. Like for example, in 2016, we decided to do. our First enterprise wide trust survey. And we got a D minus, maybe a F maybe a D minus at best, depending on what kind of curve you're grading on. So we have 55%, 55% of veterans either agreed or strongly agreed that they trust VA to deliver its mission.
So it's on a Likert scale, which isn't great. Fast forward that was in 2016, fast forward to 2021 78 So we've come a whopping 23 points in the, in those intervening years because the creation, or because the emphasis of an on an enterprise wide office that kind of. went across the three administrations focused on customer experience has really done a great job at getting into a lot of our healthcare facilities.
A lot of our benefits facilities under helping our employees better understand how to own the moment and deliver that one, that world-class customer experience. And now we're at 78%. So if you look at some of the industry leaders in like banking and finance and insurance, like USAA, for example, I think they're at like a 78.
So that's pretty, pretty good. By the way. If we were to parcel out these trust scores from the administrations, the veterans health administration for example, is at a 90% trust. So that's all of our clinical professionals with 300,000 individuals delivering healthcare to our six and a half million veterans in the field every year over year.
They're at 90% trust on our largest survey, which is called outpatient surveys or the out-patient trust score surveys So there's a lot of opportunity to improve, but I think VA has come a tremendous way and in our CX journey and a lot of people probably don't know that. So thanks for
allowing me to tell the
story
a little bit.
Phil
Phil Dillard: Oh, absolutely. I look forward to sharing this with the veteran community that's out there and those who would say who, who look only for the doom and gloom, and don't look for the great stories cause I want them to I would love for them to understand that there is a lot of good stories out there that like what you're sharing those numbers don't lie and the experiences and the reputation that I hear on the ground doesn't lie either.
So it's a great. segue Though where you ended to get a question of like how, and I think the first part is like, how did you personally get your, how did you get involved? What roles did you have along the way? And then how did the organization get here? Cause both of those are are great stories to tell
John Boerstler: Yeah, absolutely. So I got here in in probably a, not in a very non traditional way, you know, as a Marine Corps veteran who served in operation Iraqi freedom in the early two thousands. So 2004, 2005, I found myself getting out of the Marine Corps and then graduating college. Really figuring out along the way on how to make a successful transition from military to civilian life.
But my first job out of the Marine Corps, I worked for a member of Congress for a Congressman in Texas and being the only veteran in the office, they said, you're going to do all the VA casework and the outreach and the constituent services and the policy work related to VA. I'm like, oh man, I was really looking forward to.
doing The sexier, you know, stuff like the state department or Homeland security or international development or something like that. But what happened, you know, 16 years ago when I took my first job out of uniform was I really allowed me to see not only the pain points that other service members and veterans had in their journey, but the bright spots as well And how we can better design a system to really encourage my generation of veterans, Iraq and Afghanistan, veterans, and then those who come after us on how to better access care and benefits at VA. And so, after a variety of public sector and private sector roles I found myself really helping build this technology platform, using a Salesforce communities platform to, to really help veterans navigate.
The dizzying array of social services ranging from employment to financial assistance or food assistance or legal services or VA. care And make it much easier for them to access those services by by utilizing technology as a leverage, as a leveraging point and holding the organizations, the non-profits and government agencies out there that were delivering these services, holding them more accountable for the speed and efficiency by which they responded to their clients.
And that's I think how I got involved in and reached out to by the by president Biden's transition. team In November of last year, I was after the election around Thanksgiving, I received an email asking me if I wanted to interview for this specific job. And I said, absolutely, this is the only job that I would interview for at VA because the opportunity to have a chief experience officer in one of the largest companies, the second largest government agency in the federal government, it's.
With 11 million customers. I mean, we, as a tremendous opportunity to not only serve my brothers and sisters and their families more effectively, but, you know, expand my own knowledge of the customer experience and the employee experience. So how VA got here is like you like a lot of. Big milestones that happen in big organizations is there wasn't, there was an access crisis in 2014 at the Phoenix VA medical center.
And veterans were having to wait for appointments for in some cases, weeks or months. And that news article and the following covered the coverage that followed was very devastating and really kind of put VA on on Not only members of Congress, the radars for members of Congress, but other news media.
And and folks that now kind of wanting to look at VA a lot more. closely And then like any major crisis, we had a leadership change and then secretary Bob McDonald came on board and being a, you know, a fortune 50 CEO with Procter and gamble and retiring after a long career there. And of course, going to west point first, so we won't hold that against him Phil, but before he joined Proctor and gamble, but he came on and and using his private sector experience and understanding the the customer started the veterans experience office.
And then we quickly, soon after created our first journey map in 2015. And that from a user perspective, from a customer perspective, from a subject matter expert perspective, I looked at the journey. map as Probably the greatest product that VA's ever produced at that point in time. And it really got a lot of us behind this new direction, this rethinking of a department of veterans affairs to better.
serve Our existing customers, but they're their future customers as well. So over the next few years, I mentioned the enterprise wide trust score that we started with at 55% net promoter score at 2016, then we launched several. programs designed really at patient experience. So using the best practices of the Beryl Institute and Forester and some of the best private sector consulting firms out there on how to design a world-class patient experience, because 300,000 of our employees are fixated on delivering healthcare to these millions of veterans on a daily basis.
And that happened in 2017 2018 We codified customer experience into. not only the the culture of VA and the I care values, but also in, into our legal structure and to the, what we call the the the 38 CFR, which is kind of, how we define a lot of the way that we deliver and prevent our programs.
And then finally, as I mentioned, our recent measure of the 78% trust. Here in 2021 was, it's been quite an incredible journey. Now we've started with a handful of people we're at about 170 employees, so we're almost like a consulting firm within VA. It's an enterprise wide shared service. So we can scale up or scale down based on the demand from the veterans health administration or the veterans benefits administration to do journey mapping surveys and any number of ways that we measure the customer
experience
Phil Dillard: that's really a great story. Really great detail. I made a note. I was like, John has encyclopedic knowledge of this. I'm learning a lot about the VA and how they operate really excited to hear this. I'm curious. About, like, when you said that you first started, it felt like almost like being typed typecast as the veteran, the only veteran in the office.
So you go do the VA roles, and I'm sure it sounded like it was a double-edged sword at the time, but I'm curious, looking back on it now, and you're in particular, your experience.
in the Marine Corps, do you see anything that you really learned? in in the service that actually prepared you for this or showed you how you actually would believe that customer experience approaches would work in this environment.
John Boerstler: Yeah. And the Marine Corps is it's because our employees are are Marines, our employees and customers. It's kind of a unique situation. So if you're if you're a defense department employee in the uniform services or the the branches, you're your. The leadership wants to make sure that you have a good experience, but they're.
At the same time, they also have control over that experience in two different ways, both as a customer and as an employee. So it's a, it's it's a different situation for VA, which of course we're trying to attract and acquire and retain these customers because we want them to choose VA for their healthcare and their benefits and many other programs and services that we provide.
So, so that's that's an interesting question because you think about Marines is like, you know, it's mission accomplishment first and then troop welfare. Right. And it's probably a distant second is troop welfare. What we call troop welfare or the employee experience. They're not necessarily concerned about your happiness at all times, but you have a mission that a to, to accomplish and a mission to, to do it.
I think. The core values that you learned in the Marine Corps or the Navy or the army and the air force, the coast guard or the space force now it's truly reflected in the core values that we see here in VA. And I think making sure that that we can bring that experience into the work that we do and better educate Our non-military our non non-military connected employees to make sure that they understand their customers. Just like, you know, like USAA I mentioned them USAA I mentioned them earlier here, you know, they put all their employees through military cultural competence training, and we do the same thing.
And I think it's only getting better to make sure that that. we Supply that
If we're going to create this world-class customer experience for our veterans and their families, caregivers, and survivors, then we also have to make sure that we provide a world-class employee experience for 400,000 men and women that serve here in the VA everyday.
Phil Dillard: And that's a consistent thread that we hear from a lot of. A lot of guests on the show, the employee experience matters a ton to be able to deliver the right customer experience. And you know, if it's once again, sample size of one, but I can't tell you the number of times that I've heard people say, we want you to choose you to be the VA We want you to be here. We want you to feel like this is a great place for you and people are living that ethos where I'm seeing it in the field. I'm curious that then it gives me a segue to the question about. the vision you, you chart about the incredible accomplishments and the incredible trend over the past five to 10 years.
What do you think about the vision of the future? What's the balance between what you've built or what you're going to accelerate or how has the challenge different now that there is you have this great team you have you know, over a hundred people, would you say over 170. people And working in creating this experience in a shared service, where do you go from here?
John Boerstler: Yeah, that's a great question. I think that the. the the vision for, you know, my tenure here at VA is really aligned with secretary Denis, McDonough his vision, to really ensure that we make all this, all the decisions we make whether they're strategic, operational, or tactical in scope, is that are we increasing access and improving outcomes for our customers?
And as that relates to customer experience and delivering a world-class customer experience, we have to look at the data and the. data tells me that that veterans under 40 and particularly those under 30. So those transitioning service members and their families trust VA a whole lot less than veterans over 50.
And particularly a male veterans over 50, which trust VA the most. And so we,
If we think not only along the lines of age, but race and ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender in general, we have to design for all of these different customer types to ensure that some of the most underserved veterans and their families are engaged and retained as customers, and that they choose VA for their care and benefits so that we can fulfill our sacred oath and our commitment to them.
So what that means in terms of translating. to Actual programs and activities and things that I want to achieve is, you know, if we're, if we know that the young youngest veterans that get out of the military, trust us the least, then how do we be more PR, how are we more proactive in acquiring and retraining, retaining them as customers?
And it's that point of transition that you probably remember from your time in the Navy is that's that critical? Inflection point where we have the opportunity to get really kind of did deliver a delightful experience, both digital and non-digital to make sure that veteran not only has access to our programs and benefits, but they're.
They're taken care of by the community they returned to. And so I think VA plays a number of different roles, along that journey. And if we think about transitioning service members that we, as
The United States military creates the largest number of displaced workers every year. 250,000 young men and women leave active service, and they move from Virginia to Texas or California to Missouri or Missouri to Florida. And the professional and personal networks that they have at their duty station do not translate to the communities that they return to. And so they have a difficult time finding work and finding a new social or that unit mentality, that social network, so to speak that we have in the military, that comradery that we so miss. And that can lead to negative health and economic outcomes. So how can we be on the front end of that transition, and prevent negative health and economic outcomes by wrapping our arms around these individuals and their families at that point of transition? And then at the same time deliver a delightful customer experience?
And if we're talking about younger people now millennials, and then whatever the generation is called after the millennials, you probably know better than I do Phil like. You know how digital experience is where we're going to make.
We're going to convert the most customers and retain the most customers. So how do we knowing that we're such a large organization and such a well-funded organization, how do we take those resources and make sure that we can deliver benefits and services at a click of a mouse or a tap on the, on, on your mobile phone and so that folks don't fall through the cracks.
So there, there are so many things that. we Need to do to address some of the gaps in the, in that and increase the trust among those veterans. And it doesn't always have to be digital. It can be low tech just in that can work just as well. But I think that's where we start. And that's the vision that I'm sending forth with our colleagues in each of the administrations and staff offices is really focusing on that, that first
customer experience that
we have with our
veterans, their
families, caregivers, and survivors.
Phil Dillard: Sure. It's a, it's an amazing challenge, but probably an even more amazing opportunity the way I look at it or the way you've kind of framed it as is really clear. Right. There's There is probably some technology. And I'm assuming that you probably learned a decent amount about how to get that done with the work at combined arms, as well as some of the generational differences by work with the wounded warrior project.
Love to hear a little bit about those impressions, but I wanted to ask, like, what sort of things do you think are trends? Is it a technology? Is it a trend? Is it approach? Is it a combination? Because what I'm hearing you say is you have a multi-generation. Customer or client base that has different needs at different life stages.
And when we were doing this work at when I was managing director of corporate strategy at Charles Schwab customer experience was is a big driver at that organization. And they talked about life, stage events, you know, w Navy, federal, and USAAs Got us at the Naval academy at like the inception they're like here, we're are your bank and where your bank for life?
And we were like, okay, that's what everybody else does. You know, that's what we, that's what we did. But they also delivered on that promise at the different stages along the way. It seems like you have the challenge of getting people of acquiring people at different stages. And you specifically talked about that big transition event that happens with big chunks.
That really matters. So is there anything in there that you see as a an emerging trend that you may have learned from one industry or one experience or another that you'll apply in to this challenge?
John Boerstler: Yeah, absolutely. I think, especially as it relates to a successful transition from military to civilian life, particularly among the underserved populations that I mentioned and women veterans of color native American veterans. And in, in some cases, like I said, The veterans and LGBTQ plus veterans that we're learning a lot more about and actively reaching out to serve more of these men and women who may have been discharged wrongfully.
Bef before don't ask, don't tell was repealed 10 years ago by president Obama and reaching back out to them and saying, Hey, VA is still here for you. So I think that the, some of the trends that we're seeing are much different than the trends that were around 10 or even 20 years ago, as it relates to veterans, because.
We're much more reflective. I think of the population than we ever have been of the general population than we ever have been. And I think that's to ultimately a credit to the United States military and our increase in diversity, but we still have a long way to go in, in recruiting people of diverse backgrounds.
So we are going to be laser focused on how to deliver. You know, better customer experience and solutions and tools and technology for those populations as well, and doing, using him and human centered design in that qualitative, you know, building of the personas and understanding the pain points, the bright spots and the moments that matter along each individual journey for these different groups of people is critical.
And I think our shop is very. well position to be able to do that. And then also share that information across the government sector, but also the private sector so that people can continue to outreach to these individuals. I think addressing the social determinants. of health you know, the built environment of the, of of helping these transitioning service members and veterans not only when they get out of the military, but throughout their lives and enabling and empowering our clinicians and our benefits, service representatives in the field to be able to refer them using technology and leveraging what we can build to refer them to services that VA doesn't provide.
So if you think about VA providing a B. and C Very well in that world-class customer experience, but then the service member or veteran or family member needs D through Z and D through Z is provided by local government by state government or by nonprofit organizations or even private sector organizations like USA or Navy.
Fed Then how do we connect all of those dots? How do we allow for that bilateral sharing of customers if they opt in so that they can, we can address the whole person and make sure that if they have issues and about getting to a VA medical appointment in terms of transportation or job to pay for that transportation, and how do we address those social determinants of health more effectively so that they can get to their appointment.
They
can continue to
thrive and
provide for their families
Phil Dillard: That, you know, that makes me think of,
It seems like. This is where your three E's listening might be applied And tell me if I'm reading this right. But I understand that one of your listening tools is a survey measuring ease, effectiveness, and emotion, and that it might be one of those ways to really understand how right, how to structure the solutions to do what you just spoke about.
Can you talk about what they are, what you're looking for and what you do with the results of that?
program
John Boerstler: Yeah, absolutely. So I think you're referring to our V signals, our veteran's signals survey capability. So we have a hundred different surveys. For different experiences, you know, related to outpatient visits or inpatient visits at the hospital or loan guarantee or home loan guarantee, programs and services, or the VA insurance program, service delivering anything that a veteran or a family member may need and how they access those programs and measuring their experience, using a Likert scale of strongly disagree to strongly agree.
Of course. And We measure it like, like you mentioned, Phil that through the three E's the three E's ease effective emotion and trust. So ease is what, when I arrived at the facility, whether that's a benefits office or a health care facility, was it easy to find parking? Was it easy to navigate that facility? Did I, know, was I able to understand how to access these different services?
Effectiveness. Did I understand what my provider told me? Did I understand what the benefits of service. representative is telling me about how to better access different programs and emotion. Do I feel respected in that encounter? Do I trust VA to continue to deliver these programs and services in a respectful way?
And so all of those different measures essentially kind of factor into. Our trust score that we measure on a quarterly basis is almost kind of our promoter score of sorts. And then it allows us to really gain critical insights because it's not just a quantitative measure on a point in time. We're also in many of our surveys, not all of them, but many of the surveys.
we have A open text, qualitative field where that were the veterans are able to leave their qualitative feedback, which give us really good insights into how we can deliver better deliver care or benefits to that veteran and many millions of their brothers and sisters. So we've got a tremendous data set over seven, seven and a half million responses to our a
hundred surveys
and two and a half
million open
free text comments.
Phil Dillard: that's that's pretty awesome. It's really.
It's really helpful to understand the thought that goes behind the score. And I really appreciate that because I've looked at a number of different scores that folks have used for different things in industries or certifications. And they haven't really, they haven't really stood up and having actually lived that experience and had people ask me that and then have them follow up.
I actually. I don't see this in any way to be offensive to the VA, but I was like, I think it's what the younger folks think. I was surprised when I was scratching my head going, why wouldn't I think about the VA as my primary. care Right. No one else has asked me, no one else said that they want me and I've been through and being, you know, out of the military and into business where your medical changes from place to place.
And it's hard to find those records. I felt like the. VA was Getting after it to go and track them down, they were doggedly trying to find the information so that they could earn that trust and that they were living that score. So once again a survey set of one, but I see what you're doing. And it makes sense when we go to stuff.
that's A little more niche and a little more tricky like specialists, you know, I've seen some things around specialists, like when you need a specialty, but what do you do about the bigger macro more tractable challenges, like, addressing the high rate of suicide amongst among vets, lots of people talk about this government.
Non-profits, you know, everybody wants to address. It's it's tricky. Is there something that you're finding in CX that's helping you move the needle on a tricky issue like this?
John Boerstler: Yeah. We work very closely with our office of mental health and suicide prevention. on A myriad of activities, including the, a lot of outreach and coalition building, particularly around the governor's challenges. What is a really neat program where the VA is partnering with governors and mayors across the country to really build these local coalitions of service providers, both VA and non VA, because some veterans either don't want to be seen by VA or.
don't have eligibility to see for one reason or another. And so we don't want them, we don't want those individuals to fall through the cracks. And if they are able to go to VA, we do want them to get into care because we know based on. all The data is that veterans are much less likely to achieve negative health and economic outcomes.
If they're enrolled in the veterans health administration, if they're enrolled in our phenomenal health system, our nationwide health system has uh 1700 facilities, as you mentioned earlier, Phil. So we do know that we have to do a better job at enrollment and that's kind of back to our conversation earlier about transition The point of transition and then opportunity to deliver a delightful customer experience at the point of when individuals and their families are getting out of the military and helping enroll them then, or at least ensure that there are, they understand what benefits and programs are the best available to them.
And the only way that we can do that is by designing a much better customer experience for that interaction, because it's just such a massive. System 250,000 people getting out every year and that, that potential to, to interact with them. We're also, and I mentioned the free text comments in our surveys, and this is a new mechanism using artificial intelligence that we have developed with the office of mental health and suicide prevention.
That if any veteran leaves a comment on when responding to their survey and it has anything related to. them being in crisis with either for themselves or someone else, then that will actually trigger our veteran crisis line. And they'll proactively reach out to that individual and wrap their arms around them and hopefully prevent any sort of crisis from happening.
So we're using a lot of the tools that the private sector is developing. That technology gives us to leverage the ability to better serve these individuals and lead to better health and economic outcomes writ large, but I think better understanding the data better understanding the research that's available.
and then Just acquiring and retaining customers generally will lead to less not only less suicide, but less unemployment, less homelessness, less behavioral health challenges, less involvement in the criminal justice system. But I really
think it all
starts with
how we,
how that first interaction with VA.
is
Phil Dillard: Yeah. The first interaction is so important in any anytime you're trying to make a first impression. Right. And if you're, if it seems to me, instead of you're shifting that impression to this is a service that supports you and cares about you versus this is a fallback or or a last resort or something of that nature.
And then Changing that perception in someone's mind and position, and is a great opportunity. And you know, what's interesting also that speaks to the challenge. It struck me while you were talking and I couldn't believe that I'd never thought about it before. How does 250,000 new customers a year rank as a growth rate amongst those who offer competitive services in the, in, in the market?
John Boerstler: Yeah. So, I mean, we don't acquire all 250,000 customers. I think that's our challenge is to make sure that people, that veterans and their families choose VA for their care and benefits. And we better, we do a better job at educating them on the front end of what they're eligible for and then how we can deliver that world-class customer experience once you're in the system.
And we've got work to do there. There's only, there's nothing but opportunity statements. I think for VA in our future body of work and the customer experience realm. So, Are we able to serve that many every year? Probably. You know, it depends in, in, I think we just need to be a lot more proactive.
And, you know, when you mentioned back to engagement of more at-risk or underserved veterans in their families, we're actually going through a two-year pilot right now in partnership with the office of mental health and suicide prevention. And the veterans health administration, veterans benefits administration to identify six underserved regions of the country.
So a mixture of. rural urban and suburban in some cases that have low utilization of the veterans health administration, low enrollment and VHA rep the in the healthcare system and low utilization of benefits correlated to high suicide rates or and high unemployment rates So taking all of that data, we have landed on, you know, six areas that we want to host what we call these virtual or these veteran experience action centers, which really involves the entire enterprise where veterans can pre-enroll for an appointment.
And then they will be called by the Jabber system. So once again, leveraging technology that's available on the open marketplace to then be reached out to by a professional. So that we can wrap our arms around them and achieve a greater outcome and increase their access into our VA programs and services in the, what we call C signals are our surveys that gauge veterans trust in that three-day sprint of these virtual.
Veteran experience action centers is over 90% in most cases. So we're really testing this out to make sure that we can target the most at-risk communities and the most underserved
veterans and make sure that we
increase their access and
improve their outcomes.
Phil Dillard: I like to say that I always want to try and catch people doing it. Right. And that sounds like a heck of a an application. Of using the data to experiment and design a specific solution to, to to address an issue. So that sounds really interesting. Look forward to hearing about how that goes and and what sort of results you see out of it.
It also makes me wonder. That sounds very like intentional, right? Driven by the data and addressing a specific problem. Have you had any surprise ruins, unexpected partnerships or combinations that have delivered something? Whether it was something like COVID dropping out literally out of the sky or something that somebody just uncovered while they were doing the work that spread across the organization
John Boerstler: Yeah. I do think that COVID you know, flipped everyone's life upside down. And I think VA having not been in the organization when it started, but certainly joining the organization in the middle of COVID did a phenomenal job at really pivoting immediately to virtual work.
and virtual Tele-health care. And then we one of the first things I did. Once we rolled out vaccinations or the vaccines was startup, a survey that measured not only the vaccine experience for veterans and many of whom are coming to VA for the very First time. So once again, talking about that customer recruitment or or customer acquisition and retention opportunity but then also a vaccine acceptance survey or what other people call uh vaccine hesitancy.
And so we got some really, we gleaned some great insights from both of those surveys and not only how to deliver. Better care in the future on delivering vaccine. And I think writ large VA did a phenomenal job in rolling out millions and millions of vaccinations for veterans and their families across the country.
But also how we can better design outreach and marketing campaigns and physician to clinician and nurse engagement of existing patients on the merits and the benefits of vaccine vaccination for not only oneself but for One's family and I apologize, but I
might have to run
here in a second
field.
So apologies
in advance if we can,
if we're not able to
cut it short.
Phil Dillard: I'm sure. No, no worries. Actually, we're getting down to our last couple minutes anyway.
John Boerstler: Okay.
Phil Dillard: I had, I only had a
Couple of, questions and a couple of questions left and really you answered them in a couple of the latest ones. So if we want, we can, pop over to the little lightening round I had three minutes left on the clock and three questions, three questions that I wanted to, that I wanted to get to.
And I appreciate that your time is an in demand. So how about we'll pop over to that. Just get into the lightning round. And as you know, cause you listen to the show three questions that I ask everyone to to learn a little bit more about.
them and to help the audience, to kind of gain something from their experience.
So the first question is as a customer, what's an example of one of your favorite.
experiences
John Boerstler: So I was at the DC VA medical center. So I transferred my care from Houston, Texas to DC VA. And I was trying to find the physical therapy shop in the basement of the hospital. And many of these hospitals are old and they've been built upon and improved upon for over decades. And so it's difficult to navigate sometimes.
So once again ease, effectiveness and emotion, right. And I. think One of the surgeons could tell that I think she had just gotten out of surgery. She could tell that I was lost. And so she took it upon herself to own the moment, which is one of our C our CX training here at VA's called own the moment.
And she actually walked me to the physical therapy clinic and made sure that I got to where I needed to go. Her time is incredibly
valuable.
And I
thought that was
one of my favorite experiences
As a customer.
Phil Dillard: That's that speaks to
speaks volumes to the commitment
of the, of that person and the message. And that's really heartwarming to hear. That sounds super. So the second question I get ask is. If there's one thing you could change about people's perception of the role of customer.
experience in an organization, what would it be?
John Boerstler: That customer experience isn't customer service. You know, it is it's about service recovery, and it's about insuring that you you take care of those that customer's needs. But it's also about designing so that you can prevent that service recovery need in the future. And I think that as government, you know, government hasn't traditionally or historically been focused on that and we have the most customers in the world and you know, and so I think that we need to kind of.
shiftt Our internal focus from the pro the public sector to focus on that customer experience, particularly in a digital way because of the pandemic and because of the circumstances driving us to, to hopefully receive that much more delightful digital experience, but service recovery
is critical,
but it's not,
Ex customer experience
can help prevent future
service recovery needs
Phil Dillard: absolutely. And it can
increase the total value of
whatever
is that w so the total value of the organization, to the folks, to whom you hope to serve, it's a big differentiation and actually a great one for government. Because if you think about improving the experience, there are a whole lot of things that did.
And also you look at the competitor. Set right. Peop consumers are used to own demand, ease of use and all sorts of stuff. It's a big change and it snaps them out of it and makes it even harder to do the basics. If you're thinking just from a service lens as opposed to experienced, but I couldn't agree with you more there.
Last question. And this is about for our listeners as a leader, as a customer experience leader, what one lesson would you like them to take away from your experience?
John Boerstler: Wow that I think, you know, any dumb Marine can can own the moment and become a leader in customer experience. And I think it. really from the organizational and from the human perspective it's, if it's how much you care about people and that, that can show through so to speak in in how you approach different problems to solve.
And I really think that there's just an opportunity to learn so much more about. The way that we deliver these wonderful experiences and better design for the people that we in my case, and in our case here at VA and 400,000 of my fellow
employees is our
sacred,
Our
sacred
duty to take care of
veterans that are families,
caregivers, and survivors.
Phil Dillard: Well, if it's one thing I've
learned over my now decades of experience with the United States Marine Corps I think the story of the dumb Marine is something used to keep, to, catch people off guard and to see how certain people would treat others because I've met very few of them.
I actually believe that there's something about the Marine Corps in the way. It's it attracts people in the way it's led That there is a practical wisdom that the leaders there exude and bring into the world with them and the leaders eat last has always stuck with me as a, one of the smartest simplest things to stick in someone's mind to, to prepare them for this. and I think that experience along with the other things you've done have prepared you to usher the VA into the next era. So I want to say. again Thank you so much for your time for what you do. It matters to so many millions of people. And I expect that a lot of people will get a lot of value out of your share here, because you bring this perspective from these multiple disciplines from the public private non-profit military government that people should really listen to and think about.
And thanks again so much
for being
so
generous with.
your time
John Boerstler: No, thanks so much for having me Phil and They always say the Marines are the best at self-deprecating humor. But the funny thing is that we don't really know what self-deprecating means. So,
but thank you for thank you for
having me and,
And allowing
my bad haircut
onto the your wonderful podcast.
And I'll
keep
listening and go Navy
Phil Dillard: well, beat army. Thanks so much, John. Great to have you
And
we'll see
you soon.
John Boerstler: Yes, sir. Thank you so much.
Phil Dillard: I love the phrase John uses - “Own the moment.”
It captures that sense of duty to care for others while we can. And it’s a lesson we can take from John. Own the moment, show care for your customers, and accept CX as your sacred duty. Oorah!